conjectural navel gazing; jesus in lint form

i have been reading isaiah and luke at the same time. i learned that god can be literal. he said some things that were going to happen in isaiah, and, oh my gosh! those things happened exactly as he said. in the hundreds of years between when jesus was prophesied and when he actually came -- the people had plenty of time to
make up their own idea of who jesus, the savior, was going to be. one idea was that he was going to be a rich, powerful king who was going to get rid of all the bad people and make the chosen people all rich and powerful.

i think that since god and jesus repeat over and over and over again about hell and what not -- there has to be some validity to it.

the best analogy of hell i saw was in a play.
i believe it is dante or something. these 3 people are stuck in this room by themselves for eternity. they each betrayed someone they loved very much in life. each of them are trying to get forgiveness from the other for what they had done in life. it is virtually impossible because each person is so vain and so manipulative it is like watching 3 hamsters in a exercise wheel. (Bill, my colleague and a playwright, just told me the play is by satre and is called no exit.)

the really nasty people i have met in life are so happy with how they live miserably. i think that is their afterlife -- just a continuation of
how they exist in reality. Eternally screwing people over. Only JUST with their own kind.
It probably isn't even really hell for them.

Anyway, there is that goats and sheep thing.

i believe there is going to be some judgement.
i don't think it is a distraction.

i used to think otherwise until i saw how literal
the prophecies in isaiah to jesus was.

i am not afraid to receive my judgement. in fact, i would prefer it. whenever i have been 'set straight' it has been a life changing thing in a very good way. i would rather receive judgment than spend eternity in a hamster exercise wheel,
IF YOU GET MY DRIFT.
Whoa.

my friend, cindy, and i had this discussion on the steps of the metropolitan museum of art one saturday. her, smoking a cigarette in her all black, faux fur coat, black shades, red lipstick and me in the usual. why people are offended by being called sinners. neither of us are offended. we are sinners. should we prefer to be saints?

Okay, so, here's a question:

Why do you choose to use the term "salvation" and all its related words, when it doesn't actually mean what you want it to mean?

And, there are other words and terms that DO mean what you intend to say. You use some of them in this post, especially "communion with God."

So why set up a perpetual misunderstanding by choosing to use terms that mislead people? Does your job really need that extra layer of challenge?

"Salvation" is a perfectly good word with no more or less baggage than any other religious term. And, as far as communion goes, I think of it as part or a path of salvation and not a synonym.

It's not a matter of "baggage," it's a matter of definition.

The word "salvation" has a definition and a derivation. That definition and derivation are both rooted in the idea of rescue from a horrible experience -- in this application of the word, that experience is usually eternal damnation to hell in whatever way one understands that idea.

People who hear you say "salvation" will still be hearing "rescue from a horrible experience," no matter how much you want them to think it means something else.

Apart from that, if I understand the last clause in your comment up there, "salvation" includes "communion" but there is more to "salvation" than JUST "communion." Yes? Communion is a subset of salvation.

So, if that's so... what does the rest of salvation consist of? For you. I'm still working on understanding your definition of this term, since you evidently intend to keep using it and I want to understand what the heck you mean by it.

Ah...Okay...Salvation is from the difficulties and horrors of this life. This may not be "escape" but comfort in its various forms...spiritual and emotional. And such salvation can be had in community. Faith can help us navigate life's difficulties (through communion with God etc) in healthy ways. This is salvation. This is grace made real in our life.

Salvation is to be rescued from a bad experience. But I don't think of that bad experience as Hell. I don't think we need to look that far. Where did you hear that "salvation" only meant salvation from Hell? I have heard it used that way, but not solely that way.

Do you really think I'm unique in hearing the term "salvation" coming out of a collared minister's mouth, and thinking it means what it means?

Wow.

Apart from that -- this is the first inkling I've seen that you're applying the term "salvation" to this earthly life, and not to an afterlife that you believe in. Confusion piles upon confusion!

Okay...We have a communication problem. As far as I've intended, I have never used "salvation" except in an earthly (though spiritual) sense.

Tim Curry in Legend. Love it! Thanks for the fun photo :) Of course then there's Robin Williams trying to rescue his wife from her self-constructed hell (against the advice of his son) in What Dreams May Come.

Interesting post about the distraction and about being in communion with God.

Salvation continues to fit because even the ministers who have abused their position to color and scare people with images of hell (that may have in their origin been intended as metaphoric or in the very least attempting to describe something beyond our current experience) also meant that salvation brings one into the presence and into communion with God. They are intending (as misguided as that is and was) to scare people into communion with God. Why, these ministers and believers don't believe that speaking of salvation as a benefit in terms of wholeness and the Good is beyond me.
Salvation remains a needful term because its not just psychological health, not just, communion with God, and it includes the idea that God would not allow us to remain separated from God, the source of our life and being. To be separated from god is to be separated from that which will ultimately give us life.

Megan, why do you insist that the narrow definition you use is the correct one and cling to it in the face of those who have remained in the community that uses this word says that it has a larger meaning than the abusive and inept ministers you apparently have encountered?

Granted unlike Tripp I include a life beyond the current one we experience in my definition of salvation, it is of a piece to me and I believe for the Christian tradition.

Tripp, that's useful to know, as you are the only person I've yet encountered who uses it that way.

In the entirety of the rest of my experience, ministers discuss salvation as one of the possibilities of what happens after death.

A person dies, and then is "saved" (in heaven, united with God, etc.) or damned (sent to hell, denied connection with God throughout eternity, etc.)

Since the Catholics officially ditched Purgatory, those have been the only two officially sanctioned options.

I'm curious, now: what's the point of being "saved" before you face the post-death judgment seat?

Larry, FWIW, I believe in the afterlife and that salvation speaks to it. But I seldom if ever preach on salvation in terms of the afterlife. Salvation is as you suggest, an ongoing and present reality...and process.

Megan,

To state the obvious, we have heard very different preaching on "salvation." Certainly I have heard those "afterlife" sermons. But I have heard far many more about salvation being something we can have here and now. The Kingdom of God is here. This is Jesus' proclamation. Salvation can be experienced in our present moment.

For me, this makes Larry's statements all the more meaningful...and (Larry, this is a response to you.) underscores my desire to see how it is played out in our lives. Mental and spiritual health would be a very easy extension of that. And, yes, my experience in 12-step stuff is the foundation for some of my thinking.

Larry, why do you ask?

Tripp, what do you think people need to be "saved" from during this life, as opposed to after death? Your use of the salvation-related terminology is becoming much clearer to me thanks to this conversation, but I'm still working it out.

Some other time I'll press on the "Kingdom is here now" confusion, but one at a time, please.

Megan wrote:

'Since the Catholics officially ditched Purgatory, those have been the only two officially sanctioned options.'

You're probably thinking of limbo, which never was defined doctrine nor 'officially ditched'. The reigning Pope doesn't believe in it; he never had to!

It's only speculation about what happens to the souls of unbaptised babies.

Not the same as the intermediate state where the good are cleansed before entering heaven.

Failed to come back to this post and see if further comments had been left, so I failed to answer Megan's question to me. So in case Megan you look again at this thread of conversation I will answer the question.
Megan, I ask because I am curious. Also, knowing would help me understand the point you are attempting to make, or what it is you are exactly getting. That is to say I can come up in my own head with a variety of reasons you may be so insistent some less charitable than others, and instead of assuming your reason(s) I asked a question.