conjectural navel gazing; jesus in lint form

Well, here's a thought -- that the practice of being a disciple, of following, IS the most meaningful form of worship.

But is worship part of discipleship? Certainly discipleship is part of being a worshipful person, but the discipline of stopping and praising God...is that part of discipleship? I think so, but the question is how.

Well, that is my question today. I like what Soren had to say, faith without works and all that, and just thought I'd share it.

i was looking at the date yesterday and realized
that was the date that i first went to a retreat
at richmond hill -- the night sea journey thing.

and then i remembered that was when i met tripp -- i think that means i've known you for at least
10 years?

most of those being mystery years. we didn't really know each other well. and perhaps still don't YEAH.

i like mystery. my fav thing about god.
if god gave me everything up front, i would
be extremely bored.

Tripp, is worship *separate from* discipleship? I was caught by your phrase "stopping and praising God," and I thought, "Why stop? Why not keep going, and praise at the same time?"

I'm reminded of the stricture, "If you love me, keep my commandments." If worship is the focused expression of love, then keeping the commandments (i.e., discipleship) seems like it IS worship. Not that worship is something separate.

I'm with Megan, here, Tripp--don't faint, Megan! ;-) --if we are to pray without ceasing, then worship is another name for discipleship. Paul calls us to offer our bodies as our reasonable worship. Sounds like discipleship to me.

Of course, being an Orthodox wannabe and all, I'm offering the clarification that liturgical worship is just as much discipleship as discipleship is worship, but we can go with Megan's emphasis. It is, after all, the truth.

But don't let my advocacy spoil things. Continue.

I am thinking of the monastics. All they do is in praise of God. I am with you Megan. But there is physically stopping labor for prayer and contemplation. I am a great fan of this rhythm. I think thatthe liturgical worship is a reflection of and builds discipleship.

You know, I experience a great deal of confusion when I really try to grapple with the idea of praise of God.

Not that God doesn't deserve praise. God certainly does.

But doesn't God already know how great God is? And looking into my heart, doesn't God also already know to what degree I recognize God's goodness and mercy?

So what's the point of external praise and worship? Do sinners think we're going to fool God into thinking we're better than we are, by slinging hosannas at God?

So then I turn my thoughts to the effects worship can have on ME, rather than the effects worship might or might not have on God.

So then I turn my thoughts to the effects worship can have on ME, rather than the effects worship might or might not have on God.

Can't say I agree there, Tripp. Where do you get "It is God's gift to us"? And did God give only one gift?

The effects that corporate worship can have on me are generally bad. Irritation, annoyance, denigration, receipt of hatred, and at the very least, interruption of my effort to connect with God.

God's gifts are many.

I have found that worship, and by this I mean liturgical worship, is often the source for most of what I like about Christianity. Now, that being said, I spent a lot of time seeking a community of worshipers that welcomed me, allowed me to struggle in the ways I needed to and have upheld me in who God has made me to be. So, worshiping there has been good. I have also worshiped in places that have led me to experiences similar to what you mention.

Though I would not say that worship should merely be a mirror for my own thinking, I do think that if a service is alienating, then go elsewhere. There are many congregations. There are many communities. Why should I beat my head agains a wall?

As far as the sabbath being a gift, I was refering to scripture. When Christ was challenged for "working" on the sabbath day, he was challenged by the powers that be. He replied, paraphrased, "The sabbath is from God as a gift to humanity. It is not humanity's gift to God." So, legalism about honoring it was not Christ's goal. What you said about God's gift is what triggered that thought for me.

I didn't say anything about God's gift. But okay, I think I follow your last set of comments.

My question is: what if all services are alienating? And what if the thinking leading the services is wrong?

I recently reread one of the Gospel passages about the Sabbath challenge you mentioned. I interpret it as Jesus letting the listeners know that he was of God, that he was God; and therefore the Sabbath was his to give, and to use as it suited God's plan to have him do (teaching, healing, traveling, whatever).

I like the interpretation. God owns our worship, our times of honoring and will use those to his own purposes.

Don't you think that God owns *all* our time, though? No matter what we're doing?

I fear we may just be circling around the drain of "Tripp wants church, Megan does not" again.

Drain. Yes.

I agree with you Megan, but I highlight the liturgical because of what was assumed when Jesus spoke of the Temple or the synagogue or the sabbath or gathering or Passover or what have you. The Jews were a worshiping people. The worship piece is assumed for the earliest of Christian communities. That meant daily observances (purity stuff) and liturgical observances and study. One of the ways that Jesus was known to be the Messiah was because of his life as a worshiping person. This was both communal and private worship. He tought in the Temple. He called it his "father's house." In good Baptist fashion, I want to be like Jesus, and this means liturgical worship to me. It means everything that you say as well. I just include the liturgical.

There are lots of ways to be like Jesus, but I try as I am able to bring about the whole. I assume you and I are trying to do that...but your experience and my experience have been vastly different. And, obviously, that matters greatly in this one particular.