This is a link to the lectionary for this coming Sunday. We employ the Revised Common Lectionary at Reconciler. I think it suits our purposes well enough. The trouble I am having with my sermon this week is that I am still, somewhere in my imagination, arguing with Cliff over Paul's words to the Romans regarding death. They appear in this Sunday's lectionary.
Romans 5:12-19I need to get the argument out of my system so I can preach this Sunday. The argument is not what the pew-sitters need to hear. That is my own trouble and not their's. The trouble I am having is whether or not Paul brings a new read to the Genesis text.5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned-
5:13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law.
5:14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.
5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man's trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many.
5:16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
5:17 If, because of the one man's trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
5:18 Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
5:19 For just as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
The immortality of Adam is a first or second century interpretation of the Genesis passage. Cliff gives several good quotes on this. Paul himself seems to bear this interpretation. Also, Vita Adae et Evae, or the Latin translation of "The Life of Adam and Eve," and a later adaptation, "The Apocalypse of Moses," suggest that Adam and Eve were originally immortal. The early Israelites, however, did not have this perspective. Philo and Josephus, also early Common Era, do not interpret the Genesis passage to assume Adam was immortal. Now, what this leaves me with is a quandry. I interpret this bit of the Old Testament more like an early Hebrew reader and less like a first centurey Christian. I have been tought by other Christians to read it as such. This is the Humanist/Calvinist ad fontes rearing its head in me. It is farther than Calvin might be willing to take his own all orf returning to the sourse, but the same interpretive ethos exists. As much as is possible can I know how the writers of the work were interpreting their own work? It is a slippery slope.
As impossible as this is, it is a way to engage an community of interpretation...specifically the one who penned the work in the first place. It is a way to engage in the plain reading of scripture. It is a discipline of sorts, our not reading things into scripture. Cliff would agree. It is also a discipline of humility to submit oneself to a tradition of interpretation. If the church Fathers (and Mothers), for example,interpreted the passage along with Paul, I must be cautious of my own interpretation...even if it jibes well with another community of interpretation simply because it is not my community of interpretation.
This becomes quite a quandry for me. The "opposing" community is early Judaism. Urggle. I am not so willing to contradict their interpretation. Even Calvin seems to wrestle with it. Regarding Adam:
He was, in every respect, happy; his life, therefore, had alike respect to his body and his soul, since in his soul a right judgment and a proper government of the afflictions prevailed, there also life reigned; in his body there was no defect, wherefore he was wholly free from death. His earthly life truly would have been temporal; yet he would have passed into heaven without death, and without injury. Deth therefor eis now a terror to us; first because there is a kind of annihilation, as it respects the body; then, the soul feels the curse of God. We must also see what is the cause of death, namely, alienation from God...For then was Adam consigned to death, and death began its reign in him, until supervening grace should bring a remedy.It is clear that Calvin comes down on the side of Paul. Anything else would have been a tremendous surprise. But Calvin's own admission underscores my trouble. Is Adam's existance temporal? Calvin assumes a pasage to heaven for Adam. Adam is not to live in the Garden forever. He's got to go somewhere. And then there is the "supervening grace" which I assume is the cross. Calvin does not say. He moves on in his comentary on Genesis.
It is that supervening grace which I employ again and again in my work as a chaplain. Ever day someone dies in my sight. Sometimes that death is gentle and serene, sometimes lonely, sometimes traumatic but it is always grace-filled. I know that I am speaking of experience, but that is all any of us have. Paul speaks from his, Calvin from his. Revelation and experience are close-knit siblings in our faithlife. Death, in my experience of watching it, is a gift because it releases us from suffering. We enter eternal life through it. Yes, this is a particular Christian take on it with several caveats respecting God's judgment and our faith. Sure. But I do not fear death. Death is a thing that will come to all of us. It cannot be avoided. Calvin and Paul would surely agree with that much at least.
What we should fear is God's judgment. And even that is perhaps an absurd notion. I can only live by faith. God will judge me by intention and action, by my faith and my praexis. I shall endeavor to live the life of a faithful follower of Christ. Beyond that I must relinquish control of judgment to God. If there is any reason to fear God it is because I cannot predict nor control God's judgment. I look forward to death because it will release me from life. Thus far the "little deaths" I have experienced (e.g. bottoming out and moving into sobriety), have only brought life. The death of baptism only brings life. Why would our physical death be any different? Paul agrees with this as well. So does Calvin. Death and judgment are enshrouded in one another.
I pray for God's merciful judgment when patients die in my presense. I do not know these people well enough to judge them. I do not know how life has shaped them. I only have the confessions of family, and only a couple of times has that been negative. Their disclosure will be slanted and limited. I am the chaplain. I am sure, that if there is bitching to do, then the do it away from me. I also imagine that there is always bitching to do. Heh. I simply will seldom see it. (Note: unless a family requests it, I keep my prayers about judgment to myself. I like my job, and desire to bring comfort. The families need comfort and not the word "judgment" escaping from my lips. I'll leave that to their pastor if they have one.)
But I also imagine God's grace and mercy upon all of us. I cannot judge otherwise. I cannot judge the hearts of my fellows because I too am sinful. I may have a list before me from scripture, but I cannot truly say who has done what and when. That is not even my job. That is God's job as he posesses true judgment. I must concern myself with my own sin on behalf of the Body of Christ as to keep all from sin and death...which is alienation from God...and which has been remedied by Christ's supervening grace. It is that lousy both/and again. Until Christ comes again, our passage into heaven is our physical death. Rejoice, because in that way we overcome death. Death has no victory. Christ has overcome death.
Oh, death is still there, to be sure, and we still face it and someday it will come and take us. But it is our whole faith that by His own death Christ changed the very nature of death, made it a passage � a "passover," a "Pascha" � into the Kingdom of God, transforming the tragedy of tragedies into the ultimate victory.
Tripp:
I did a little checking in Philo. Here's what I found:
For that the body was created by the Creator taking a lump of clay, and fashioning the human form out of it; but that the soul proceeds from no created thing at all, but from the Father and Ruler of all things. For when he uses the expression, "he breathed into," etc., he means nothing else than the divine spirit proceeding form that happy and blessed nature, sent to take up its habitation here on earth, for the advantage of our race, in order that, even if man is mortal according to that portion of him which is visible, he may at all events be immortal according to that portion which is invisible; and for this reason, one may properly say that man is on the boundaries of a better and an immortal nature, partaking of each as far as it is necessary for him; and that he was born at the same time, both mortal and the immortal. Mortal as to his body, but immortal as to his intellect. (Philo, On Creation, XLVI [134])
And love being engendered, and, as it were, uniting two separate portions of one animal into one body, adapted them to each other, implanting in each of them a desire of connection with the other with a view to the generation of a being similar to themselves. And this desire caused likewise pleasure to their bodies, which is the beginning of iniquities and transgressions, and it is owing to this that men have exchanged their previously immortal and happy existence for one which is mortal and full of misfortune. (Philo, On Creation, LIII [152])
In other words, Philo holds the same view, generally, as the Church Fathers: Man's intended state was an immortal one, but man gave way to sin and "fell into mortality." Of course, as Philo notes, man's immortality was not inborn (so also say the fathers), that is to say, his body (here in Philo) was mortal, but could have been immortal had he not fallen away from God.
Philo and the Church Fathers differ, of course, on some of the specifics, but my point is to highlight their similarities.
In other words, death was never God's intention for human beings, but human beings are not inherently immortal, their immortality being derived from God and kept by way of dependence upon God.
Posted by: Clifton D. Healy at February 11, 2005 11:01 AMHmm...interesting. I think Philo walks a fine line. I think he sees a dualism. I do not see the agreement you do. We have an immortal nature but our flesh is not that. What is immortal is the soul.
Mortal as to his body, but immortal as to his intellect.Is there somthing immortal? Sure. Our souls. The conjoining is a fact, but one will pass and the other will not. I see no sense of continuance from Philo. Posted by: AngloBaptist at February 11, 2005 11:54 AM
Dualism? Oh, most definitely. Philo is a Platonist, and thus you can see clearly his doctrine of the immortality of the soul (a la Plato's Phaedo)--and in this sense, it is doubtful if you want to seek a Hebrew understanding of Genesis from Philo.
But one ought not look over his words, cited above: "And this desire caused likewise pleasure to their bodies, which is the beginning of iniquities and transgressions, and it is owing to this that men have exchanged their previously immortal and happy existence for one which is mortal and full of misfortune." Notice, in context, their immortal existence is that of the embodied soul. That is to say, their bodies partake of immortality so long as they are in concert with their souls. But the moment they fall, their bodies are, as it were, separated from their souls, and thus lose the immortality that they had had.
Keep in mind, to the extent that humans have immortality it is derived from union with God, and not something inherent in the original creation of humans. God's intent is immortality, but that immortality is accomplished when humans remain in communion with God. If Adam and Eve had never fallen they would have remained immortal, which was God's intent, because they would have remained in union with God. But in being divided from God, they became mortal and full of death.
Posted by: Clifton D. Healy at February 11, 2005 01:56 PMI just disagree. It is that simple. I see no reason for it. It is an interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures that depends upon our reading into the scripture our hope of a corporeal afterlife.
Angels. Pins. Yada yada.
I know I see peace when I see death. That is all. God gave us death as a gift. I see it every day. It is hard for me to refute what I see.
Posted by: AngloBaptist at February 11, 2005 03:25 PMThat was lame of me. Sorry.
I do not overlook the passage you say. But he seems to be saying that the collusion between mortal and immortal causes pleasure. We choose pleasure (flesh) over the soul (immortality). He says nothing of the flesh living forever. Again, "man is on the boundaries of a better and an immortal nature, partaking of each as far as it is necessary for him; and that he was born at the same time, both mortal and the immortal. Mortal as to his body, but immortal as to his intellect. " We are on the boundary. He is right. It is a fine line/duality to our nature. But that our original anthropology was immortality is not supported by Genesis. Was all that was created to be immortal? Lemurs?
We, like all of what was created, were dragged out of the mud, brought to life by the breath of God passing over the deep. The reason we were not created immortal is our free will, our very nature bespeaks our fragility and our finite ability to worship God. We could always choose otherwise. Free will precedes the fruit of wisdom.
Also, why keep us from the tree of immortality? What is God afraid of? What is God protecting us from? Perhaps God was afraid we might be like Him. He certainly does not desire it. He does not want us to live forever.
I also know that we are most likely at an impasse here. I think it boils down to our experience...and your holding fast to the Tradition and allowing that to be your interpretive guide. Pascal would be proud of you. I am too, but I just can't go there this time. I simply do not see it in the scripture. I honestly perceive it as a manipulation of the Hebrew scripture from a Christian perspective. I have trouble with that.
Posted by: AngloBaptist at February 11, 2005 03:47 PMBut we do have a corporeal afterlife, else why did Jesus rise bodily from the dead, and Paul fundamentally base Christian hope on a bodily resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15.
Indeed, we will have to disagree. But I hopefully have disabused of the notion that Philo and Josephus (who is just silent on the matter), in anyway support your thesis.
Of course, if you're thinking about the "Hebrew" intrepretation of Genesis and a "Hebrew" understanding of death, you'll have to decide whether or not you'll be siding with the Sadducees or the Pharisees--since neither could agree on the matter.
Oh, and then there's that whole "Jesus is the interpretive key of the Old Testament" thing ya gotta deal with. (And it ain't just me, bro. Yer hero DB said the same thing.)
Posted by: Clifton D. Healy at February 11, 2005 03:49 PMSorry, didn't see your reply till after I posted.
Tripp, ol' pal, there are days I just shake my head in wonderment:
Also, why keep us from the tree of immortality? What is God afraid of? What is God protecting us from? Perhaps God was afraid we might be like Him. He certainly does not desire it. He does not want us to live forever.
C'mon Mr. Baptist-Soul-Competency, when does the text say they were barred from the tree of life? After they had sinned. Clearly, having rebelled against God they could not live forever in a sinful state. Having chosen death, they must experience it. It was God's will that they live forever, indeed, that they be like him. But having rejected that will, God allowed them the consequences of their choice.
The good news in Christ is that the risen Lord has restored immortality and union with God to us. Death--never, ever God's will for us--has been trampled down by death. It is an enemy, but for the Christian an enemy that has no teeth. We must die, yes, but we are no longer captives to death. We will live again, bodily, with the Holy Trinity and the saints. Not so, those who reject God.
Posted by: Clifton D. Healy at February 11, 2005 03:56 PMAs to the peace you interpret from the experiences of those you visit in the hospital, I suppose it's going to depend on what sort of peace we're talking about, and whether it is genuinely peace from God or from another source (and I don't automatically assume an infernal source here). There's peace, and then there's peace, after all.
Posted by: Clifton D. Healy at February 11, 2005 03:58 PMOkay, sorry for piling on the replies here, but let me try this.
You claim that mine is merely an intepretation thrown on the text. Well, let's see your case.
You claim that death is a gift, that in itself it brings peace. Let's see your cards. What Old Testament (especially since you're claiming that mine is simply a Christian interpretation of the original, and presumably more pure, Hebrew) verses can you bring to bear on this? Where's the proof that it's a gift? And how can we be sure yours is not just merely "your" intrepretation?
Posted by: Clifton D. Healy at February 11, 2005 04:04 PMOy.
C'mon Mr. Baptist-Soul-Competency, when does the text say they were barred from the tree of life? After they had sinned. Clearly, having rebelled against God they could not live forever in a sinful state. Having chosen death, they must experience it. It was God's will that they live forever, indeed, that they be like him. But having rejected that will, God allowed them the consequences of their choice.This is what I mean by bringing the NT into the OT. The scriptures do not say "and God made Adam immortal." Yes, we are in his image, whatever that means, but I think you have to make that reach for it to mean "immortality." I have always assumed that meant "free will." So, now that Adam and Eve have fallen, and now know the meaning of Good and Evil (um, so that is not in God's image either, unless God can't tell the difference...) God would not have us be like him.
Then the LORD God said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever’— 23therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of EdenIf we are in any way like God it is in our knowledge of Good and Evil. And then God protects us from such knowledge...by keeping us from being more like him. We never had the immortality to begin with...not in the flesh...only in soul. No, you have not convinced me about Philo.
The good news in Christ is that the risen Lord has restored immortality and union with God to us. Death--[delete this:never, ever God's will for us]--has been trampled down by death. It is an enemy, but for the Christian an enemy that has no teeth. We must die, yes, but we are no longer captives to death.It is no enemy if it can do no harm. It is a thing...like pomegranites. It happens. We do die. It has no hold on us and is a gateway into the presense of God...into the presense that our flesh cannot stand. It is God's gift that we shed our flesh.
And so the disagreement stands.
Posted by: AngloBaptist at February 11, 2005 04:08 PMI'll squeeze out some prooftexts for you, Cliff. That'll have to be later.
Regarding interpretation: recall that I am the unrepentant relativist. On some level, we are all sold on an interpretive community, the Fathers, Platonists, Freudian, Baptists, Quakers...whatever. We all participate. We cannot escape these traditions completely. And our interpretations reflect those allegiances. You yourself speak of the various traditions that influence you, whose influence you escape and then realign yourself toward. This is humanly inescapable. Thus, you as an Orthodox know where God is but not where God isn't. It is a happy place for my relativism to live. You certainly don't mean that by the statement, but I hear it there. It is humility and I am glad for it. We mus always assume that on some level our interpretation is our own and thus found wanting. But the journey in faith cleanses us from even this strife. And death, well, that too will cleanse us.
Regarding Brother Dietrich: Yeah, I know and he and I disagree on that one. He was a great man, perhaps a saint of sorts...but that don't make him right all the time, just admirable.
Posted by: AngloBaptist at February 11, 2005 04:15 PMOkay, Mr. I'm-Just-Gonna-Read-It-Like-the-Hebrews (sorry, in a label mood):
Where do you get, in the text, mind you, the following:
in his image = free will (your assumption, you say, so why should I buy it?)
we never had immorality in body, but did in the soul? (If you bring in [what I claim is your misreading of] Philo, why can't I bring in the fathers?)
Where does it say our flesh cannot stand the presence of God? Um, weren't Adam and Eve in the flesh when they talked to God? What about Moses on Mt. Sinai? What about Abraham? Weren't all these in the presence of God in the flesh?
More to the point, what about Jesus? He rose from the dead bodily, ascended bodily. Heck, he was God in the flesh, why wasn't he just a spirit.
I think I see the problem, and it's been one I've noticed since first we laced the blogosphere with our ruminations: you have a flesh/body problem, a sort of unrecognized Gnosticism/dualism.
As you're pompous authoritarian rigid legalistic dork of a pseudo-pope friend (and brother!) I hereby assign you the penance of meditating on the incarnation and its implications for the rest of Lent. Begin with John 1, proceed to 1 Corinthians 15, jump into Athansius, and take a couple of John Calvin's Institutes and call me on Easter!
Posted by: Clifton D. Healy at February 11, 2005 04:21 PMI don't have the dualism. I know Moses saw the "hind parts." I know that Adam and Eve hid from God and then stood before God. I also know of the Hebrew tradition that to see the face of God meant sure death.
And Christ breaks all these molds. What this has to do with immortality and the flesh I still don't see. All I know is that when we die, our bodies decay. We become dust. It is normal. It is true. That is the point of Ash Wednesday, to remind us that we are finite creatures. If there is any immortality, it is found in the soul. The soul is immortal.
Now, what I want to know is how old I am gonna be when Jesus returns. What does th etradition say about that? I don't mean to be glib. I am curious, since we are counting angels here, what is the tradition regarding our appearance? Will I look like me? Like a 24 year old me (I hope. I had abs then.)? What is the tradition?
Posted by: AngloBaptist at February 11, 2005 06:11 PMVery interesting. keep the good work! Fantastic blog: http://skys.jp/blog/archives/200504/06-1228.php , Revelations of John
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