conjectural navel gazing; jesus in lint form

Of course, I'm going to go in the direction of church-as-purported-authority, etc. You know you can depend on me for that. ;)

Connecting with your previous musings on how the church can "demand" discipleship from its members -- the infamous day care posting -- that "demand" presumes authority on the part of a church. No one can "demand," or "hold accountable," who does not have authority over the person/people of whom something is being demanded or who are being held accountable.

So. For purposes of this posting as I understand it, church has authority over its members.

That said, you wrote, "we use the different poles of the dialectic as escape hatches from accountability to and responsibility for one another or as a way to suppress theologies that challenge us"

And what about the other reasons one might engage the poles of the dialectic? What about when a member perceives that the church is way off the path? Member says "Hey church, you're off the path, what are you doing?" Church says, "Shut up, you have no authority, we have all the authority." Member then must either engage with the church in its error, or disengage with the church. What then?

The church doesn't "demand" anything that Christ doesn't "demand."

My burden is light and my yoke easy...and all that. Better to say that the Church (at least the Orthodox) *invites.*

"Demand" was the word used in the post I was referring to. Let me cruise back and find its date -- I don't know how to link here, but at least I can point to it.

Shoot, I can't find it. Tripp, help! Where's the posting in which you mentioned "maybe we should have day care but not brag about it"? The one in response to someone's rant concerning the behavior of teenagers and/or their parents, participating in church in ways that displeased the ranter.

Here is the url

http://anglobaptist.chattablogs.com/archives/016545.html

I think this is what you are looking for.

Megan, I think we agree here. The example(s) you list for how the dialectic can serve us is a good one. I would say that these things can happen.

I also think that when Church is healthy, the poles can be in dialogue. Does this make sense? An individual should be able to hold the Body accoutable and vice versa.

In the Baptist way of doing thing, authority and power may be different things all together. A pastor may be entrusted with a lot of authority, but he can be fired. He has no power in that decision. This is one of the shadings of the Hauerwas quote from a couple of days ago. So, she, the pastor, hedges her bets and will not push too hard lest she lose her job. We are even told in seminary to expect to be fired at least once.

Now, it may not be a simple matter of theological disagreement (as if that were simple). Sometimes it is that there is an unhealthy system in the church that the pastor unearths and she pays the consequences. A congregation is like a family. Sometimes it needs a scapegoat. Sometimes that person is in the pulpit. Yay.

The dialectic is hard to live into. We resist influences from tradion or community..."You do not think for me!" and we resist, as community, challenging messages, prophetic witnesses in our congregation "Hey! You refuse to get to know the Korean newcommer. What is up?"...It is hard.

Thank you for the link, Tripp, that was exactly the post I was thinking of but couldn't find.

I was particularly thinking of your comment in which you wrote, "And yet, we are called in order to be called out. How do churches demand discipleship?"

Karl, does that clear up why I'm talking about "demand" and not "invite"?

Tripp, as I contemplate your comment above, I see how very different your idea of a relationship between an individual and his/her church (and clergy) is from mine. I don't have any experience of a clergy member actually knowing an individual well enough to be able to hold that individual accountable for anything.

As an incipient pastor, how do you do that? How do you foster those relationships with your congregants? And what do you do with those congregants who say, "Thanks, Father Tripp, but I'm here to pray and worship and I want you to leave me alone, please."

Thanks, Father Tripp, but I'm here to pray and worship and I want you to leave me alone, please.

Heh. Father Tripp. Heh. We typically do not use that nomenclature...Pastor Tripp? Reverend Hudgins? I dunno yet. That made me smile.

Aaaanyway. I would leave them alone. I would certainly not want to send them off by disrespecting where they are. I would also keep an eye on them...not in expectation of trouble, but sometimes a boundary like that is set to protect. Maybe by respecting that boundary I would be invited to eventually pass through it and see what this person is all about.

How do we do it? I dunno...it seems very much built into the system. How large are the churches you have experienced? 100? 200 families? 1400 families? North shore has 120 people, individuals, show up on Sunday morning for the English speaking service. I know almost all of them by name and have shared meals with many. Sometimes this is simply social. Often they want to invite The Pastor. So, then its more like work, but that is how relationships are fostered.

The job description encourages this kind of relationship. I would say that most people who go into pastoral ministry in any denomination are looking at how to be in relationship with their congregants. The size of a church, the focus (or not) upon the liturgical role of a pastor or priest, and the "power differential" plays roles in this.

"I don't have any experience of a clergy member actually knowing an individual well enough to be able to hold that individual accountable for anything."

Which is interesting, since in Orthodoxy the very opposite is true (in most parishes).

I think this explains why I see the relationship between me and the Church as personal, relational, and invitational rather a cold, bureaucratic oppressive set of "demands" so often seen in contemporary Christianity. This also explains why, if I had your experience and didn't know about Orthodoxy, I probably wouldn't be much of a faithful Christian.

I just couldn't accept a church or pastor that "demanded" of me that which he refused to model himself and thus encouraged me to have: authority exercised in and through a self-sacrificial life of love.

Precisely why I'm not a Roman Catholic anymore, Karl. :-) The Church as a whole refuses to do what it preaches.

But I think the rest of this also has a lot to do with going into a church wanting to be known. I don't want the personal and relational, especially from someone who thinks that at some point it's going to be his job to "hold me accountable." I want to be respectfully let be to conduct my relationship with God, who will know firsthand whether I'm working hard or being lazy, feeding my spiritual growth or starving it on a diet of junk food and distraction, much better than any clergyperson ever could.