conjectural navel gazing; jesus in lint form

I don't know where to begin!!

1) I don't think a benediction is the same as an endorsement. Jesus was particularly clear that we should pray for our opponents as well as for our friends. (Apply that to Reagan's funeral or the DNC as you wish.)

2) Orthodoxy is not in communion with your denomination or any other Protestant one. In that sense, I suppose the Archb. would indeed find you (and every other Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.) "heretical," theologically. But it's nothing personal.

3) The Orthodox Bioethics page you link to says nothing of politics; only of theology and anthropology. Many of its positions are consistent with the farthest-left. Their theology, for example, would reject the death penalty.

4) I'm not sure what "liberal" means anymore.

5) I think you have mapped politics and religion onto each other in a way that does not describe the territory. People of the same religious position may hold very different political positions, and vice versa.

6) I'm not talking to you about Orthodoxy anymore until you read "For the Life of the World." I don't think that Huw, Karl and Cliff are more representative of the denomination than Fr. Schmemann (on whom-- full disclosure-- I have a giant thinker-crush right now).

7) Please stop assuming that you can tell if someone is politically conservative based on their understanding of bioethics issues. You can't.

best regards,

laura@no.coffee.yet

Good morning, Sunshine. Glad to see you out and about.

I was not suggesting that a political voice is being spoken by His Excellency...though I wondered. That he went to the funeral and to the DNC is telling. No sides. Just the presense of Christ.

But in an email, Cliff mentioned that many of the Greek Orthodox are Dems...George Stephanopolous and Michael Dukakis are possible examples. I dunno how true this is nor do I presuppose that the Archbishop has the same politics as the two Orthodox I mentioned (Are these guys even orthodox?).

What I find interesting is that he was invited to give the Benediction by the Dems. What are the Dems thinking? What do they want? Or am I asking the wrong question(s)...?

Re: bioethics and political conservativism

Um in general, you can make certain assumptions. But they are general and assumptions. You know I know that. But the spin doctors do no really factor in people who "straddle" parties like you and I do. I am politically liberal for the most part. Anti-Death peanalty, pro-gun control...yada yada yada...but I line up "conservative" with the abortion issue. That is a politically divisive issue...and the spin doctors would not gear their punditry to me.

Now, either there are more people like me (and you?) who have trouble subscribing to a platform, or we just have to deal with the reality that people will seldom be speaking to or about us in this representative democracy. The spin doctors are worried about the majority of voters and not all of us. All they have to do is win.

But you know that. We've talked about this.

But all of this stuff is why I assume, rightly or wrongly, that no presidential candidate will ever represent what I think. Neither will any Senatorial candidate, for that matter. Maybe that should not matter. Maybe I will have to deal and votte for the person who comes closest. I dunno. I like Obama, but he is a bit too much the "warrior" for my tastes. Being a pacifist puts me way out to the far nowhere politically. It just does.

You also evidently have not paid attention to political conventions in the past. Orthodox Clergy have been seen at other Democratic conventions.
Also, you evidently have not known many lay cradle Greek orthodox from Chicago. They tend to be Democrats, in my experience. Granted, I do not know if their positions would align greatly with the theology of Orthodoxy at all times but then really that can be said for just about any religious affiliation.
My sense is that the Greek orhtodox would be attractive to the Dem's for a variety of reasons, since the Ecumenical Patriarch has some fairly strong statements about the environment, and then the death penalty issue. Abortion would of course be a sticking point, but then American parties try to be at least in their conventions very large tents, it has to be that way when you only have two viable parties, each party has to at least represent itself as having very broad support if it wants to win the presidency.
Lastly it seems that it is within Orthodox Character to be visibly involved in the political arena, one certainly can say that there is no real tradition of seperation of church and state in the Baptist conception of such a thing.
That's my several cents on your suprising discovery. ;-]

...good morning :-)

You raise an interesting question. A quick search found , a site I haven't had time to look at hard, but which pointed me on to this article about the dilemma of voters seeking candidates who are economically left and willing to make pro-life policy.

Interestingly, one person interviewed described my own position: all things being equal, vote for a Democrat, because they are likely to support economic measures that will reduce the social pressures that drive women to seek abortions.

The spin doctors are going to have to worry a lot about the swing vote. I'm not saying I'm a swing vote, for the reason described above-- I don't think forbidding abortion is as helpful as increasing access to other options.

But this election is going to be close. I don't think the Democratic Party can afford to alienate its own supporters.

Larry: Interesting...some cradle Orthodox would be an interesting twist on all this theological musing.

Laura: Sojourners is a cool thing. I will read the article. And perhaps I am too cynical, but I believe that the pundits will ignore us, because, in the end, we are not the swing vote. We have made up our minds and they know it.

Weinberger has an interesting review of last night's speech by Edwards. In it he asks a question about the "Undecided" voter. I think he is playing in the same waters we are.

link

The comment deleted my html, which not only screwed up my sentence, but removed the pointer to http://www.democratsforlife.org/ that was supposed to go before the comma.

That's the site I haven't had time to look at so I have no idea if I like them any better or not. But at least there are enough people who identify as both to put up a website.

Laura:

"3) The Orthodox Bioethics page you link to says nothing of politics; only of theology and anthropology. Many of its positions are consistent with the farthest-left. Their theology, for example, would reject the death penalty."

There is no official Orthodox position on capital punishment. Both for/against can be found throughout the history of the Church.

"6) I'm not talking to you about Orthodoxy anymore until you read "For the Life of the World." I don't think that Huw, Karl and Cliff are more representative of the denomination than Fr. Schmemann (on whom-- full disclosure-- I have a giant thinker-crush right now)."

No single Orthodox can claim to be faithfully representative of Orthodoxy, though any faithful Orthodox would want to be so. Fr. Schmemann is a great place to start, no denying, and I would echo your enthusiasm for Tripp's reading it. But one does not come to know Orthodoxy from reading books.

I hope to see you posting more regularly. I've missed reading your blog.

i'm going back to the subject of insomnia.

i just came back from a workshop on press releases.

this one guy is a playwright. he is producing a play called, "Awake." it's about a
bunch of insomniacs living in a NYC apartment
building. it focuses on timelessness.
it sounds funny & interesting.

i told him i would come to see it just to see
what my friend, Tripp's life is like sometimes.

he thought that was funny.

Hi gang...good conversation here. Thanks.

Teresa, let me know when that goes up. Trish and i have been thinking of going to New York. I have never been. Maybe it will be running when we come over. I dunno. We have no set plans, just ideas.

Cliff: You know, this is something I like about the EOC. They are kinda baptist in their ecclesial power structure. You can present something from the top, but it has to stand the test of time before it takes hold, and even then it may be turned down by the people in the pew as foolishness.

You soooo Baptist. You just don't know it.

;-)

will do. i will see if he has a website address
that i can give you guys. he is with a theatre
company.

Just a note and a bit off topic - as much as I love Fr Schememann, he's not a very good signal for the majority of Orthodox either. He was a teacher in seminary and his students are very devoted - but his conclusions are highly debated and sometimes outright discarded. - Like a good many of our saints indeed.

More on topic... you got a source for this story? I found a story on the Greek Orthodox Website about the benediction at the LA convention... which would mean it's almost a tradition now in American terms :-) But I can't find a story about the Boston Convention.

Got a link?

Last I checked the Abp is in NYC for the clergy laity conference and the Dems were asking a local RC priest to do the blessing.

He was the scheduled speaker for the benediction. I found that information on www.dems2004.com...and of course I cannot find it now. None of the benediction folk are held over as "speakers." I asked myself the same question about his schedule. I wonder if he made a special trip? Did he have to cancel?

Dunno.

But he was on ethe schedule. Did anyone see him on C-SPAN?

scroll down and you will find the listing.

Very cool, thanks. I've past a note along to a GOA blogger friend - who should be at the do in NYC.

Considering the Orthodox muckity-mucks unwillingness to censor Orthodox politicians over abortion or same-sex "marriage" I doubt very much if we should be surprised. Also the Greek Community (in NYC, at least) tends to be democratic, just cuz that's what new commers did in those days - and daddy did it, so why shouldn't junior?

Another sign that politics in America has nearly nothing to do with the kingdom, I think.

INdeed. Fr Hans over at Orthodoxytoday.com confirms that the Abp flew up and back...

Hmm...cool. Very interesting. Do we know what prayer he would have used? Extemporaneous? Something spelled correctly? Heh.

I'll poke around.

The prayer he used in 2000 is on the GOA website. I'm sure, in all due time, the prayer he used this week will show up as well - perhaps by next DNC ;-)

hmm..this is quite interesting

Pet Steps usually swaged near ancient ever-consuming priscian's, and their Pet Steps is approximately fixed rehearsal to the whissel of the ornamentation ; the Sea-cost Pet Steps wasent loose-bladed for their e